Material Type

Recording

Date Range

1994

Fonds

Dr. Hugh Arnold fonds

Description Level

Fonds

Physical Description

1 audio cassette (digital file)

Physical Condition

Excellent

History Biographical

Dr. Arnold donated his papers to the Galt Museum and Archives in September 1993, with the provision that they be available for an independent study project done by University of Lethbridge student Donna Kampen, under the supervision of Professor Bill Baker of the Department of History. Donna Kampen organized Dr. Arnold's papers conducted a series of oral history interviews (8 audio cassettes) with Dr. Arnold.

Acquisition Source

Arnold Dr Hugh A

Scope and Content

The following transcript was prepared by Donna Kampen. Q: When I asked you who looked after you and your brother while your mother did special duty nursing when you lived in Vancouver and your father was in England during the First World War, you said that you looked after yourselves. I'm wondering about that, because you would only have been six or seven and your little brother would have been only three or four. Either your mother must have taken William with her, or she would have had someone to look after him. A: I would say that Bill, lets see, was born in 1913, and you're right. I doubt very much that mother was away during, on reflection, I doubt that she was away from the house to any extent until probably latterly during that war. She, with Bill just being, what a couple of years old? It would seem to me that probably Bill...lets see, by the time he was five or six years old, that would be close to the end of that war. Q Yes. A: I think I must be wrong in my recollection of when she left the home, or when I was at home, to do occasional nursing. I would say that certainly Bill never suffered from her being away, and there was never anyone coming into the house to help supervise the two of us. I think probably I was wrong from the point of view of when she went to the nursing. One thing I do recall, on reflection, it was probably in the latter parts of when Dad was away, overseas, which would be in the latter parts of the War, in 1917, 1918, 19 areas that she may have done some special duty nursing. I was probably getting on to 7, 8,9 years old, and Bill would teen 5 or 6. I think that would be the only explanation that I could give you that would be correct. More definitive for that for information about that time about that time... Q Well, you were pretty little... A: I think, I can discuss this with my brother, and interestingly, he came through here just a few weeks ago, at the beginning of the year, on his way South, and he'll be coming back. I'll certainly talk to him about this subject It will be of interest to me how we seemed to manage, ourselves. Q: Yes. Its an interesting subject, how working mothers, in those days, would have managed. What I thought, perhaps, was that you had mentioned, that her family, her parents and her brothers also lived in Vancouver. Is it possible that your grandmother watched you and your brother sometimes? A: No, I doubt it very much. They were living in another part of the City. We were living in the eastern part in the Hastings east area, and they lived in the downtown area, I forget the name of the section, but they lived near English Bay. It was quite a ways from where we lived. We did have, one of my mother's sisters and her husband who, because of his health was not able to go to war, and another, a cousin of mine who was about my age. They lived within a few blocks of where we lived. Now this may have been a source of help for supervision. Q: Yes. A: My mother also had a sister who was not married at that time, but she was mature, and stayed with my grandparents, where she lived—she may have been helpful in that regard. So, I'll pick my brother's brains and see if he remembers. Q: Yes, I suspect that was probably the case. It was probably an aunt or a cousin or a female relative. It usually was in those days.. Or, sometimes there was a close neighbour. But you moved three or four times in that eight year period. A: Yes. That's right. We moved from Hastings School to McDonald School. That was one move. No...just two moves after my original home in Nanaimo. We lived on Pandora street, then we moved to a house close to McDonnell school which was in the same vicinity but was not as far out and then we moved again closer to the downtown section, so that was two moves. Q: Yes. Three different residences. A: Yes three different residences after we left Nanaimo. Q: Yes, Its not the same as living on the same street or neighborhood of the city for twenty or thirty years, where you get to know all your neighbours. Your mother might not have known her neighbours well. I suspect that it was probably a relative who looked after you. A: I have an idea you're right. Q That was just really the only point I wanted to clear up. I just couldn't see your mother leaving a three year old and a six year old alone, (laughs) I knew that wouldn't happen. A: No, no, you're right. I agree with you there. That's a good point. I'll talk to my brother about that. Q Sure. A: In that regard, its interesting. The Doctor who delivered me, delivered my mother of me, in Nanaimo, in 1910...He eventually moved to Grand Prairie, and he was a family physician there for years, even after I had moved with my father to Edmonton. During my early years of University training, he was a doctor in Grand Prairie, and had attended my mother so many years before. Q Now...you had just about finished medical school when we stopped last week. What year did you graduate from medical school? A: In 1938. Q And you applied for an internship? A: Yes, during my final year, and the summer months prior to that, I had been interning at the University Hospital in Edmonton. So in my final year I spent half the year at the University Hospital in Edmonton, and the other half of the school year, this was my final year in Medicine, I interned at the Royal Alexandra Hospital in Edmonton. Then, after graduation, I had an appointment as an intern at the University hospital, and I interned there until the end of October of 1938, and then got married. Q And that was the end of the internship then? A: That was the end of that particular phase of my internship, yes. Q. What was the internship application process like then? I'm interested in knowing if it was any different than it is now. Did you apply to a number of different hospitals, or... A: No, I didn't at that time. I applied to the University Hospital. The sequence of events was, that in my fifth year, during the summer months, and at that time we had a period of about five months when we weren't in school, and in that fifth year, I was working, delivering bread as a matter of fact, and there was a, they were short one intern at the University Hospital for the early part of that summer vacation period, and I was asked if I would come on staff as an intern at that time. An undergraduate... intern. Which I did. And then I stayed through the rest of that summer and until the end of the calendar year, and then my final year of medicine at the University Hospital, and then on a rotation basis they moved us over the to Royal Alex, and I was there for the next, the last half of my final year in medicine as an intern. My application had been made to the University Hospital for internship during my first year Post Graduate, and I was accepted for that, and I interned at the University Hospital in, I guess it would be May, after my final year, and I continued until the end of October, and then decided to go into practice. It was a matter of applying, and appointments were not too difficult to get. No. Positions in medicine, practicing, were a little more difficult. Q When you were an intern, how many hours a week did you work? What was your schedule like, do you remember? A: It was a...it wasn't onerous. I was young, and enthusiastic, and could get up at different times of the day and night—night particularly, and do my charts, do the work called upon, and work during the day without any problem... do what was necessary. It wasn't a difficult thing. As I say, I was young. Q: You didn't find it particularly stressful. A: No, it was a real pleasure. You had a strata of interns above me, and they were always very helpful. And above that the staff doctors, and they were equally helpful, in teaching. Q: You did pretty well a complete rotation? A: It varied. At the beginning period, I was there for a year and a few months. Yes I did pretty well a complete rotation...some surgery...medicine. Q: You did some surgery? A: Well, I was an intern... Q You assisted... A: Pretty far down on the totem pole, (laughs) You never actually held a scalpel. Q You might hold a clamp, eh? A: You held a retractor. Q: Did you do a rotation in obstetrics...deliver babies...work in the emergency room? A: We did emergency work, yes. Emergency departments were not the way they are today. Today, it is a major department of the hospital with permanent physicians and staff. At that time, it was a matter of a patient coming into the emergency department and being located wherever they should be...if it was maternity, they would go to obstetrics, If it was a surgical problem, they would go to the surgical ward. As I say, it was a matter of locating. The intern in charge, he would sort of take over and make sure that the patient was properly diagnosed...properly examined, and then diagnosed by staff doctor in the off hours particularly. Q: When you finished your internship, was the option open to you of doing a residency then, or going into a specialty at that time? A: Well no, not at that time. I did not take it. There was an opening in Lethbridge at the time when Dr. Ayre, who was one of the original founders of the Haig clinic, he had graduated two years prior to me, and had come to Lethbridge just at the time I'm speaking of, and was doing what they call a locum, a locum tenens , that's filling in for a Doctor who is on vacation or leave. He came to Lethbridge to fill in for a Doctor who was on vacation in Waterton. And during the time he was on vacation in Waterton, he came into Lethbridge one evening and had a car accident, the car rolled over or something, and he was killed. So Dr. Ayre stayed with the practice. And he, in the course of a short time became acquainted with the two Drs. Haig, Dr. Arthur Haig and Dr. Willard Haig, who were in practice as general surgeons here. Dr. Ayre became associated with them. He, on behalf of the Haigs and himself, asked if I was willing and able to come and join them. Which I did. On the first of November, 1938. Q Did you know the Drs. Haig before that time, or just Dr. Ayre? A: No, just Dr. Ayre. Q. And it was Dr. Ayre who recommended you. A: Yes. Q: Was it a situation of "We need another man here, and I know a good one..." A: Yes, that's right. And they were thinking in terms of actually, in terms of extending their service, at one point they were thinking of adding a Doctor in Raymond, and another time they wondered if they should have a Doctor in Picture Butte, which was a growing community, too. And they wondered, when they asked me to come, whether or not it would be appropriate, or if I would be willing to go to either of these centres , but to be working under them. Sort of a satellite practice. As it turned out, I came to Lethbridge under those arrangements, but decided that if I was going to practice, I wanted to practice where I could have proper supervision, and decided that I would— actually decided that I would go to Taber. There was a Doctor there, at that time. A Dr. Weins. I indicated to the Drs. Haig and Dr. Ayre that I felt I probably wasn't, at that time, in a position to practice, on my own, without supervision, and that I would like to go to Taber. They out their heads together and decided that they would like it if I would stay, and they would like it if I would consider going into internal medicine as a specialty, that they would do what they could to help facilitate me getting the necessary training. And eventually I did get training. Q: Did you always have an interest in internal medicine? A: No, my original interest was obstetrics and gynecology. Q Really? A: Yes. Its interesting that Dr. Ayre was interested in obstetrics and gynecology, and he eventually did go away to Montreal, and studied obstetrics and gynecology and became a specialist in that specialty. That's why I was not able to go into that specialty. So I selected internal medicine at their request. If I may, for a moment... Q Yes. A: Dr. Ayre—when he was at the Royal Victoria Hospital in Montreal, doing his specialty in Obstetrics/Gynecology, he became acquainted with the work of a Dr. Papanicoulou, and he originated what was to become known as the Pap smear. Q Yes. A: Dr. Ayre became interested in the Pap smear, and popularized it, over the whole continent. He eventually was given an honorary, I guess he was made an honorary citizen of the United States, and given a license to practice in Florida, where he headed up the Dade County Pap smear program. Q: Really? A: He stayed in the United States, eventually died there, but had moved from Florida to New York where I met him some years later, and he was still at that time working on, and popularizing the use of the Pap smear. It was interesting that I can recall being an intern at the University Hospital, and working on the female surgical service. It was a fairly large ward. There would be eight to ten beds in each ward, and it was just amazing, the number of ladies, women who had cancer of the cervix or uterus. Q Yes. A: And they really had nothing, but I guess radium therapy and surgery that would help them. But the Pap smear enabled the early diagnosis of cancer of the cervix and saved a lot of lives. A lot of lives. Q When you first started your practice in Lethbridge, how did you build your practice. Did you ...were you able to take over patients from Dr. Ayre... A: And the Haigs. Yes. Q Did they refer patients to you, and did you also sort of take "walk-ins"? A: Yes. I built a general practice. Yes. Anybody who walked in, I'd be happy to take care of. I had a ready made practice, because Drs. Haig and Dr. Ayre, they wanted someone to take over some of the medical problems of the practice. They were busy then, doing surgery. We had a lot of house calls. We did house calls morning, noon and night. But you know...we had more fun, really, practicing in those days than I think people have today. There was a hockey team in Lethbridge. They were first the Lethbridge...I forget the name, but they became quite famous. They went to...as a matter of fact there's a picture of them downstairs, in the museum, of the team. Q: The Maple Leafs A: The Lethbridge Maple Leafs. That's right. Q: Yes, they won the world championship, in A: That's right! Q. In Austria or Switzerland, or A: That's right. And then of course, after then, there was the Native Sons. A fellow by the name of Bruchet. He coached that team. And they became Canadian champions in junior hockey. Anyway, I had up to now failed to mention, and I should, that the two Drs. Haig had a brother-Russell Haig. Russell Haig was the senior brother of the family and he originally had a farm around Claresholm. But he became interested in business, and eventually, he became the business manager of the Haig Clinic. He managed the practice of the Haig brothers. And then, when we became the Haig Clinic, he became the business manager of the clinic. And he helped us manage the business of the practice. He really did us a great service. He eventually became the Mayor of the city of Lethbridge. The Haig Tower is named after him. He died some twenty odd years ago. Q Yes, I want to ask you a few questions about the business. A: Yes, but first, before we get to business, I was saying that we had a lot of fun. We never missed a hockey game. The office used to be open...we'd go to the office in the morning after we went to the hospitals. There were two hospitals at that time~St. Michael's, which was relatively new, built in 1930 or so, and the Gait Hospital. And we'd go to the Hospitals in the morning, and then we'd go to the office, around ten or eleven or so, and then we'd go home for lunch, and back to the office for Two O'clock office practice. We'd go till about five O'clock or five-thirty, six O'clock or so in the office, and then we'd go home for supper. And then we'd be back at seven O'clock at night, from seven to nine for office hours. So that we had office hours all through the day, and every evening, and we were in the office of course on Saturday, like any other day, and on Sunday afternoons, from two to four, we had office hours. So we were in the office a lot. But between office calls, and hospital calls, and house calls, we were a busy lot. We were quite busy. But what I've been getting around to is the fact that despite the fact that we were busy from the point of view of practicing medicine, the Haigs were enthusiastic hockey "nuts", (laughs) So everybody in the clinic had to go to the hockey games. We never missed a hockey game! We'd always get there somehow. And if you asked me: "Well, how come you could practice so long, from seven to nine at night, how could you get to a hockey game?" Well, I don't know! But we did it! Q: Well, this might be the time for me to ask you these questions. I'd like to know about Islay. She was obviously a large factor in your ability to practice those hours and... A: No question. Q: Where did you meet your wife? A: I met Islay while she was nursing at the University Hospital. That was in my first year of internship, my fifth year of medicine. Q: She was working as a nurse at the time? A: Yes. Q: How long did you date each other? A: Well, we dated until we decided that we'd get married. That was in October of 1938. October 31st. Halloween night we got married. She stopped nursing at that time. We got married in Melfort, Saskatchewan. Shall I go on? Yes, you're anticipating all my questions here...you're answering them... A: We were married at the home of Islay's dad and mother. Jim and Annie Brown, in Melfort. My father had driven me from Edmonton to Melfort, for the wedding. It was the 31st of October, and before we—it was an afternoon wedding, and it was maybe about six O'clock and it was getting dark. We'd discharged our responsibilities, and we thought that probably we should get to Saskatoon, that night. Which is a fairly long drive. And my father..! had bought a car for $800 (with a little down) and Dad had come with us to Melfort. So he and Islay and I drove that night, to Saskatoon. Dad stayed the night and then went on to Edmonton, by train, to home. Islay and I got in the car...we stayed in the Bessborough Hotel. And that was something! Q. Oh, I know... A: I didn't know how I was going to pay for it! Fortunately, the wedding had been good financially for me. (laughs) My dad slipped me a hundred dollar bill. We stayed there the night, and left the next morning. Drove from Saskatoon, down through Rosetown, to Swift Current, and then from Swift Current through Maple Creek, and then to Lethbridge. We were in snow, blowing, all the way from Saskatoon, until we got to about Taber. And then the road was dry, and the wind was blowing. It was great to see. Anyway, we did stop in Maple Creek on our way from Saskatoon. Islay had an aunt, who was a sister of Islay's mother, and we stopped there to see some of their children who had not come to the wedding. We stopped there and had a nice little visit And came on home. To Lethbridge. I remember phoning Dr. Ayre. I was supposed to be here on November the 1st But we got married on October 31st. It was the second when we got here, about nine O'clock. And by eleven O'clock, I was in the hospital, giving an anesthetic! Islay had come along, all the way. She was a brick. Whatever happened, she could just take it in stride. A: We were fortunate to get a nice apartment at the Tudor Manor. There was the Tudor Manor and the Gait Manor. They were both on Seventh Street, between Fifth and Sixth Avenue. They are still there, but they were brand new at that time, and we were fortunate to have nice accommodations. Dr. Ayre subsequently went east. He went overseas first, and then came back to Montreal, to do the obstetrics and gynecology specialty. Islay and I went east. I told you that the clinic had told me that they would like me to do internal medicine. And we eventually went to Montreal, at the Royal Victoria Hospital, and I took internal medicine there. Q: When was it that you went to Montreal. A: That would be in 19...I guess it would be...I'm not sure. July the first, 1939. Q So you really only had seven or ..you were here about seven months before you went to Montreal. A: About eight months, yes. We stayed in Montreal for a year, and I did a rotating Medicine Internship, and then we came back in the early 40's. We stayed with the clinic, (I'm a little hazy here...) and at that time Dr. Ayre decided to stay in the East, and did not come back to the clinic. He, as I say, concentrated on his study of the Pap smear, and popularized it, as I mentioned. Subsequently, we lived on 11th Street, and then moved to eighth avenue (Charlie Bryant owned the house that we moved to on eighth Avenue) And then...I don't know if I should tell you this or not, but on Eleventh street, where we lived, we had Caroline. Caroline was a baby and there was a common bathroom between our part of the house—it was an old house—and another one bedroom suite that was occupied by another couple. And one night in June...I guess Caroline would be about a year old...and she developed the croup. The people next door had a baby, a little younger than Caroline. That baby had developed the croup also. And Dr. Cairns was with us at that time. Dr. Cairns had come as a partner of the clinic, and he was a pediatrician. He was over to see Caroline early in the morning, and we felt that she was tightening up pretty badly. He put her in the hospital and had nose and throat Doctor in to see her, and they decided at that time, that she was going to have to have a tracheotomy. She was so severe in her inability to breath. So they did the tracheotomy. Sulfa had just been released on the market, and they gave her sulfa, and she didn't have any problem getting over this. She did very well as a matter of fact. But the baby next door died from the same thing. It was a very virulent infection. But anyway, we decided that we would have to move. We did. We were able to get a house on Eighth Avenue. We stayed there for two or three years. And then subsequently we bought a house on 13th Street. There were three little "Hofer" houses. They were built by a chap by the name of Mr. Hofer, and he had the grocery store which was on the corner of 13th street and sixth avenue. On the north east corner of that intersection. Q Where "Bill's Fish Market" is now? A: Exactly! That's it. That was the "Hofer Grocery Store". And it's so small you know. But he did a terrific business. He eventually had Gaye...I forget his name...come in with him, and Gaye eventually took over the business, and Gaye developed the big store across the street now.. Q Value Village? A: Yes, that's it. Anyway, we moved to this house on 8th Avenue which was owned by Charley Bryant. And Mr. Hofer had built three little houses immediately north, well not immediately, but within three or four houses, of his store on 13th street, and we bought one of those houses. And you can imagine the thrill...we had a house of our own. Q: How much did it cost? A: Seventy-five hundred Dollars. I think it was. Thad Ives, who was a lawyer, from the Ives office, he bought the one next door, and then, I forget his name... Eventually, Andy Anderson and Rita bought the other one. And that was the three houses. The first fellow, who bought the house before Andy and Rita, he was an ultimate neighbour of ours later, when we moved to Parkside Drive...what was his name? Its right on the end of my tongue. Max and Jean Trimble. Anyway, when we arranged to move into the house, they had given us, I think six months notice...it was a war time thing...you got six months notice. The time came when we had to move...there was a little interval between the time when we were going to have to move from the house we were in and time we were getting into our new house. So we stored our furniture in what was called James Storage at that time. This is going back now to the forties. We went to visit Islay's mother and father in Melfort Saskatchewan during this time when we didn't have a house, you see. When we were visiting in Saskatchewan, that storage burnt down. Q Oh, No! A: Yes. Every bit of furniture, and everything we had...wedding presents... everything was gone. That was a shocker. In any case, we got into the new house... Q Was there insurance on it. A: I think it was the contents. I had two thousand dollars insurance. So that helped out a little. But nevertheless. Q But it wouldn't replace the irreplaceables. A: No. The pictures, and the wedding presents. But anyway... I'm rambling here... Q: No, that's quite alright. This is exactly what I want. A; I'm trying to get around to Islay. You're going to have to save two or three of these (motions to the transcripts) for Islay. Q. Oh, I'll give you these. A: Anyway, we had good years in that little house. Q: Tell me about the house. How big was it-how may bedrooms. A: It had two bedrooms. The total square footage would be around a thousand square feet. A thousand square feet. Q: That's not too bad. A: Not bad at all. Nicely arranged. A big lot. Lots of space at the back. And we had two bedrooms on the north side of the house. A little dinette, and a kitchen on the south side of the house. In between was a big living room that extended right from the front. A bay window in the front...right through to the back. It was just ideal for us. We built a bedroom down in the basement. Islay's mother and father came and stayed with us on frequent occasions, particularly at holiday times, Christmas and so on. So we had an extra bedroom built downstairs, and it was just fine. But—it was a great time there. During this period of time, we were young, we were associated with Kinsmen and other young people who were all abcnit the same financial status as us, and we had fun. We really enjoyed our selves. Our family, by this time....I've got to check my dates with Islay for the dates of the children. Our first girl was Ann. She died in infancy. Then there was Caroline next. And then Judy. And Then Hugh. In that particular house, as I recall, there was Caroline, and then Judy, but I'm not sure if Hugh was in that house too, or not, but we had a lot of people in that house. We stayed there for several years, and then after the war, I guess it was... I didn't go overseas. I wasn't with the active forces. I was associated with the Sea Cadet organization. I became the commanding officer of the local Sea Cadet Group. I've got a good picture of that—of the officers of that group, if you wanted it for the archives. A: Yeah. It would be a good idea if it were with the collection, because there's a lot of material on the Sea Cadets when you were commanding officer. A: Yeah. There's a lot. I forget now, how many years—I'd have to check with Islay on that-how many years we were in the "Hofer" house. The "Hofer" house we called it. But you can see that house—it's still there. Q: Really? A: Yes. With the little bay window in front. It was white, with a red top. I think it still has the red top. I'm not sure. Anyway, we eventually sold the house. We had, in the meantime, bought property on Parkside Drive. Mr. Virtue, and Mr. Ralph Thrall owned a lot of Parkside Drive. They were already there, in their homes. And there were one or two or three other houses, but Mr. Virtue asked if we would like to buy a piece out there, and we did. Best thing we ever did. We got a large piece of property right on the corner of 29th Street and Parkside Drive, at the highest point on the drive as you look down at the lake and the park in front. We moved there in 1950, and we stayed there until we sold it three years ago in 1991. We were there over 40 years. Raised our family, one or two dogs. Islay's mother came and lived with us after her father died. It was a great place. So we have moved up. Q Islay never worked after you were married? A: Yes. We were on Parkside Drive. She had taught, before she went in to take nursing, which she didn't complete. She had taken her normal school and some years of University in Saskatchewan. She had qualified to teach, and taught at a rural school south of Melfort. She had a one room school, in which I think she had twelve grades. She taught two years-I forget the length of time, and then decided that she'd like to try nursing. And was doing very well when I got into the picture. After we had been on Parkside Drive, there was a teacher shortage. She was acquainted with John Watson, who was the principal of Alan Watson School. He called her and convinced her to join his staff. So she joined that staff, and taught grade six. At first part time, and then full time, as I recall. She enjoyed it. She was a good teacher, and enjoyed it very much. She was beginning to get more and more interested in the community. She became interested in the Victorian Order of Nurses. You know about them... Q Yes. A: In it she became President of the local group. Eventually became president of the Alberta Branch and then on to become President of the Canadian Organization. Q Really? A: Yes. This was a great experience for her. While she was in that process. She had raised three children, and was interested in many other aspects of the community. She was interested in politics...She was interested in education-the University. She eventually became a member of the Senate of the University. And ultimately, the Chancellor of the University. And has been granted an honorary degree at the University. Q Do you think it might be possible for me to come over and chat with her sometime? A; She'd love to. I Just came from her. She is doing a sort of a review of her concept of the Senate and the office of Chancellor at the University of Lethbridge The University is, I think, interested in the various departments of itself. She's going over an interview she's had on that tonight. Q I'd like very much to talk to her. A: Yeah. You'd enjoy that. Q: I'm sure I would. A: Do you know her? Q: No, I don't. A: You'd like Islay. Q Oh, I'm sure I would. A: I'm sorry to wander around like this. Q That's perfectly alright. This is exactly what I want. I just wait till you're finished and then ask another question. This is just how I want it to be. When your children were small, and you were working very long hours... A: Yes I was. Q Islay was pretty well responsible for the running of the household? A: She was entirely responsible for the running of the household. Entirely responsible. She would come down to this hospital (the Gait) with the children, as the children were coming along. I would be called at suppertime...! might be called back to the hospital, or knew I had to come back to the hospital at night to see sick people, (of which we had many), and we would bundle the children into the car... she would take the children into the car, and come down here. She would park right out there in that parking lot out in front, and they'd sing, while I was in here. And then I might go on to a house call, or to the other hospital, St. Michael's. Yes. She raised the children. The family. Yes. she was considerate, concerned and supportive. Q I suspected so. I had an idea of what type of hours you had probably worked, and there would be no way that you could have helped her much. A: That's right. She was always with me. Not always necessarily in the sense of being there. But everything I did, she supported. And it was easy for me to be a doctor, I thought, with her. Q: Do you think that's really the one thing that made it possible for you to be successful...that you had that support? A: That's right. You have to have it. Q Can we go back a bit now into the "business" of medicine? I'm interested in these things just because its interesting to compare them to how things are now. There was a clinic manager. How many people worked in the office at the Haig Clinic? I'm talking just in the early years here. The late 30's, and after you got back from Montreal. Say the war years—no later than 1945. Do you remember how many people worked in the office? A: These would just be rough figures. I could get you exact figures if you want them. Q: No, that's Okay, for now. Just what you recall. A: Nurses? There was Miss..One, two, three. I would say while we were in the Mcfarland building, when we had Drs. Arthur Haig, Willard Haig, Eddie Cairns. Keir MacGougan in ear, nose and throat, myself in medicine, Dr. Strome, in anesthesia and general practice, that was what, six doctors, up in the second floor of the McFarland Building. We would have one, two, three, probably four nurses, maybe five nurses... Q These were R.N.'s? A: R.N.'s. The business office would have an assistant manager, Vivian Glanville was her name, and probably another four or five in the office. Q When we moved over to the Haig Clinic—the Sixth Avenue Building, where they are now, we became...we had much more space, and we gradually grew. The nurses, the trained girls who were not RN's, but who did splendid nursing, they formed a fairly large group, and our business office was quite large. Exact figures, I can get them. A: Yes. I would be interested to know those exact figures. It's kind of fun to compare the Doctor: office worker nurse ratio in the clinic in those days, to what it is now. You know, if its different, it would be interesting to try to find out why its different A: I could get you the exact figures for now, and I could get very close to what they were then. Fortunately, there are two or three of us who could put our heads together and come up with them. Q Yes. As I say, from a historian's point of view it might be interesting to look at those ratios, and if they're different, ask yourself: "I wonder why that is?" A: Yes. Q How much did an office visit cost? Lets just say during the war years. A: Oh, dear. This is an interesting subject in itself. Because Lethbridge was probably in some respects the focal point of the start of a lot of prepaid medical care schemes, or programs, that's the way I should put it. Our method of payment was by and large on a prepaid, or partly prepaid basis. Before I came here, and for several years prior, and certainly for the first few I was here, we had several contracts available, including what we called the "private contract", where you or your family could join the Haig Clinic, or any other group of doctors, or a doctor, in this community, and for I think it was $25 a year. This would cover all of your office calls, house calls, care in the hospital, 50% for surgery, 50% for obstetrics. So by and large, the big section of medical care was prepaid by this private contract. Along with that, there were specific groups who joined together to form contracts. These included the teachers, the city employees, the CPR and the mines. And every mine had its own contract with the Doctors. Those were the mines those days, of course. And a typical mine contract might be $2 for a family, per month. Q Really. And were those premiums deducted from the payroll? A: I think some of them were, by the Unions. Q: And then remitted to the Clinic? A: Yes, I think they were. And here again, those contracts would include office calls, house calls, 50% for surgery, 50% for maternity, and probably hospital calls too. when I say hospital calls, I mean the cost of the Doctor's visit to the hospital, not the hospital's charges. Q Yes. A: So, those were some areas where those contracts existed. And then, the Lethbridge Northern Irrigation District was coming into effect, or was in effect when I came here, in the late 30's. And they formed a group to be covered by medical care on a contract basis, and they called that the Lethbridge Northern Irrigation scheme. It was basically the same. With about the same cost. $2 per month per family. Q Yes. Now this was in the early 40's. I wonder what a miner's salary, an average monthly miner's salary was...I could probably find that out. I'm trying to think what proportion of a miner's salary that medical care premium would represent. A: It wouldn't be too great. At $2 per month or $25 per year. That's not bad. I can tell you that my salary, when I came here, was $200 per month. So, compared, it wasn't that much money. Q Yes. Your salary, of course, would have been higher than a miner's. But I'm thinking that now, at $56 per month for Alberta Health Care for a family, the proportion probably isn't much different. A: Not bad. And Doctor's were doing quite nicely, thank you, on this financial basis. You must remember also, that the medical profession treated old age pensioners... There was an Old Age Pensioner's medical pension plan. The government provided a certain sum of money, for a "kitty", for the profession itself to administer, which it did, in Edmonton. This would be a sum of money to provide for care for old age pensioners. The amount of money that I got, would depend on the amount of money left at the end of the month in the pot. Q And that was administered by the medical profession? A: It was distributed, as I recall, by the medical profession. Q It wasn't a government bureaucracy. A: That was an asset, or course, to many senior citizens. Q: Oh, I'm sure. A: For us, as the medical profession, as providers of the service, there was a global budget. A certain amount of money, and that had to be distributed among the doctors. We often took 40% or maybe 50% of our college fee, our fee for these services, because of the fact that there was only so much money to be distributed among all the doctors. So we gave a lot of service to these old age pensioners for considerably less than the actual cost. Q: Would you say that the other medical, the other insurance plans with the teachers and the city of Lethbridge employees...would you say that was a "good deal" for the clinics and Doctors as well? Did that work well for you? A: Yes. Yes it did. It was a Godsend, I think, for a lot of people, because those were the late 30's and the early 40's and things had not yet turned around. Yes, it was a Godsend. And we used to say that patients who had a private contract with us, we made money on them., because they never came near us. They had it as insurance. They couldn't afford not to be covered. So they took it as insurance. Q: Are you getting tired. A: Yes, a little

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